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	<title>Comments on: Hope? &#8211; Obama, Abbas, Abunimah and Morrisons</title>
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	<link>http://qunfuz.com/2009/11/12/hope-obama-abbas-abunimah-and-morrisons/</link>
	<description>Robin Yassin-Kassab</description>
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		<title>By: qunfuz</title>
		<link>http://qunfuz.com/2009/11/12/hope-obama-abbas-abunimah-and-morrisons/#comment-887</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[qunfuz]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 11:02:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qunfuz.com/?p=516#comment-887</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t know if you&#039;re still there, Robert, but in the very brief time since we talked, Fayyad has withdrawn the &#039;declaring a state&#039; idea. Because Israel told him to. So there we go. The man and his mutterings are irrelevant.

Hamas may have lost support and direction, but it still has a lot more of either than Abbas-Fayyad-Dahlan. What has growing support is the civil society call for BDS and grassroots rights-based protest. Nobody is calling for the PLO to be disbanded, but for the PA to be dissolved. The PLO should be reenergised.

Israel is uniquely vulnerable to boycott because like apartheid South Africa it considers itself to be part of the Western world. Its biggest trade partner is Europe. When European supermarkets cut orders from Israel during the Gaza massacre, Israeli farmers and the farmers union panicked and made representations to government. Years of grassroots work to popularise the boycott had to happen before Western governments came on board to sanction South Africa. And yes, in Israel&#039;s case the struggle will be even harder. But the alternative (which may well happen) is continuous war until the Arabs and Muslims sort the situation out. The two state solution ISN&#039;T going to happen, and if it did it would be no more meaningful that the bantustan solution in South Africa.
http://qunfuz.com/2009/02/15/four-solutions/
see the above on why.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;re still there, Robert, but in the very brief time since we talked, Fayyad has withdrawn the &#8216;declaring a state&#8217; idea. Because Israel told him to. So there we go. The man and his mutterings are irrelevant.</p>
<p>Hamas may have lost support and direction, but it still has a lot more of either than Abbas-Fayyad-Dahlan. What has growing support is the civil society call for BDS and grassroots rights-based protest. Nobody is calling for the PLO to be disbanded, but for the PA to be dissolved. The PLO should be reenergised.</p>
<p>Israel is uniquely vulnerable to boycott because like apartheid South Africa it considers itself to be part of the Western world. Its biggest trade partner is Europe. When European supermarkets cut orders from Israel during the Gaza massacre, Israeli farmers and the farmers union panicked and made representations to government. Years of grassroots work to popularise the boycott had to happen before Western governments came on board to sanction South Africa. And yes, in Israel&#8217;s case the struggle will be even harder. But the alternative (which may well happen) is continuous war until the Arabs and Muslims sort the situation out. The two state solution ISN&#8217;T going to happen, and if it did it would be no more meaningful that the bantustan solution in South Africa.<br />
<a href="http://qunfuz.com/2009/02/15/four-solutions/" rel="nofollow">http://qunfuz.com/2009/02/15/four-solutions/</a><br />
see the above on why.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Sutcliffe</title>
		<link>http://qunfuz.com/2009/11/12/hope-obama-abbas-abunimah-and-morrisons/#comment-856</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Sutcliffe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 20:13:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qunfuz.com/?p=516#comment-856</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When I say declare a state I mean international recognition of a state from what would probably be at least 150 countries and obviously a Security Council vote. Most SC countries should be on board and Obama hasn&#039;t ruled that option out. Any idiot can declare some rinky dink state, I could right now. At least Fayyad has proposed a plan to create the organs of a state.

Israel didn&#039;t grow out the sand, the structure of a state was already in place before the U.N. vote. I don&#039;t think Fayyad is the saviour, the only thing he has going is a semblance of respect in international institutions. There is unfortunately not a long list of awesome Palestinian leaders to pick from. Hamas is now a joke and don&#039;t have the support of the Palestinian people in the West Bank or Gaza anymore.

I understand BDS, I grew up in South Africa. Some stuff works, some doesn&#039;t. What you need first is something at least approaching a consensus. If I choose not to buy an avocado pear from Israel who cares? Its meaningless. It takes a massive consensus and that is not in place. The States, many European countries and many other countries for that matter will not place sanctions on Israel. Until there is a real consensus it won&#039;t be very effective unless you want to use it as a PR tool. Stuff like hey these guys refuse to speak to Israeli professors because of such an such can create awareness but actually pressure on Israel. I doubt it. 

If the PLO disbands and there is some kind of governable framework to replace it then there is a chance of taking the moment and declaring a state and having it recognised. It hinges on the foreign recognition, that will not be achieved by refusing to buy Intel processors etc. Salam Fayyad is basically just a civil servant doing the less &#039;glamorous&#039; drudge work of building a state. It&#039;s not ideological and high minded, it&#039;s not martyrs and tear gas, his plan is just what it takes to build a state.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I say declare a state I mean international recognition of a state from what would probably be at least 150 countries and obviously a Security Council vote. Most SC countries should be on board and Obama hasn&#8217;t ruled that option out. Any idiot can declare some rinky dink state, I could right now. At least Fayyad has proposed a plan to create the organs of a state.</p>
<p>Israel didn&#8217;t grow out the sand, the structure of a state was already in place before the U.N. vote. I don&#8217;t think Fayyad is the saviour, the only thing he has going is a semblance of respect in international institutions. There is unfortunately not a long list of awesome Palestinian leaders to pick from. Hamas is now a joke and don&#8217;t have the support of the Palestinian people in the West Bank or Gaza anymore.</p>
<p>I understand BDS, I grew up in South Africa. Some stuff works, some doesn&#8217;t. What you need first is something at least approaching a consensus. If I choose not to buy an avocado pear from Israel who cares? Its meaningless. It takes a massive consensus and that is not in place. The States, many European countries and many other countries for that matter will not place sanctions on Israel. Until there is a real consensus it won&#8217;t be very effective unless you want to use it as a PR tool. Stuff like hey these guys refuse to speak to Israeli professors because of such an such can create awareness but actually pressure on Israel. I doubt it. </p>
<p>If the PLO disbands and there is some kind of governable framework to replace it then there is a chance of taking the moment and declaring a state and having it recognised. It hinges on the foreign recognition, that will not be achieved by refusing to buy Intel processors etc. Salam Fayyad is basically just a civil servant doing the less &#8216;glamorous&#8217; drudge work of building a state. It&#8217;s not ideological and high minded, it&#8217;s not martyrs and tear gas, his plan is just what it takes to build a state.</p>
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		<title>By: Asa</title>
		<link>http://qunfuz.com/2009/11/12/hope-obama-abbas-abunimah-and-morrisons/#comment-854</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Asa]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 15:30:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qunfuz.com/?p=516#comment-854</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Excellent article; agree with everything.

Robert: The whole point of BDS is to isolate Israel politically and and economically. In this sense, it is meant to be damaging. But no one is calling for starving Israeli chilren or denying medical supplies to the country the way the US and Europe sadisically tortured the people of Iraq for may years. I suggest you read the plan of the Palestinians themselves: http://www.bdsmovement.net/?q=node/73

Fayyad - seriously? Really? As Robin says, Arafat already &quot;declared a state&quot; (in 1988 I think it was). What a joke. Fayyad is just a Palesinian Buthelezi -- but with even less popular support (2% was actually for his entire electoral list, which he shared with Hanan Asrawi, who at least is a notable person -- even though she&#039;s sold out now).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent article; agree with everything.</p>
<p>Robert: The whole point of BDS is to isolate Israel politically and and economically. In this sense, it is meant to be damaging. But no one is calling for starving Israeli chilren or denying medical supplies to the country the way the US and Europe sadisically tortured the people of Iraq for may years. I suggest you read the plan of the Palestinians themselves: <a href="http://www.bdsmovement.net/?q=node/73" rel="nofollow">http://www.bdsmovement.net/?q=node/73</a></p>
<p>Fayyad &#8211; seriously? Really? As Robin says, Arafat already &#8220;declared a state&#8221; (in 1988 I think it was). What a joke. Fayyad is just a Palesinian Buthelezi &#8212; but with even less popular support (2% was actually for his entire electoral list, which he shared with Hanan Asrawi, who at least is a notable person &#8212; even though she&#8217;s sold out now).</p>
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		<title>By: qunfuz</title>
		<link>http://qunfuz.com/2009/11/12/hope-obama-abbas-abunimah-and-morrisons/#comment-853</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[qunfuz]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 00:15:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qunfuz.com/?p=516#comment-853</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for your comment, Robert. The thing is, as well as Fatah and Hamas, the Palestinians now have a coalition of civil society groups which have called for BDS, just as the ANC in South Africa did. I&#039;m afraid I don&#039;t share your optimism concerning Fayyad, whose group won 2% support in Palestinian elections. Didn&#039;t stop him being appointed prime minister by Fayyad. Neither do I agree that he has Israel worried. The &#039;state&#039; has been announced or threatened on numerous occasions (going back to the Arafat days), and nothing has changed. As for the Fayyad-Tony Blair idea of developing the Palestinian economy so long as the Palestinians are well-behaved, I think this is a non-starter. The problem in Plaestine is ultimately not economic but political. So long as there is apartheid, a wall, stolen water resources, etc, economic development happens at the whim of Israel. I&#039;vve written (in a post called Four Solutions and elsewhere) of my reasons for thinking that the Palestinian state (which isn&#039;t going to happen anyway) won&#039;t solve the Palestinians&#039; problems.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comment, Robert. The thing is, as well as Fatah and Hamas, the Palestinians now have a coalition of civil society groups which have called for BDS, just as the ANC in South Africa did. I&#8217;m afraid I don&#8217;t share your optimism concerning Fayyad, whose group won 2% support in Palestinian elections. Didn&#8217;t stop him being appointed prime minister by Fayyad. Neither do I agree that he has Israel worried. The &#8216;state&#8217; has been announced or threatened on numerous occasions (going back to the Arafat days), and nothing has changed. As for the Fayyad-Tony Blair idea of developing the Palestinian economy so long as the Palestinians are well-behaved, I think this is a non-starter. The problem in Plaestine is ultimately not economic but political. So long as there is apartheid, a wall, stolen water resources, etc, economic development happens at the whim of Israel. I&#8217;vve written (in a post called Four Solutions and elsewhere) of my reasons for thinking that the Palestinian state (which isn&#8217;t going to happen anyway) won&#8217;t solve the Palestinians&#8217; problems.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Sutcliffe</title>
		<link>http://qunfuz.com/2009/11/12/hope-obama-abbas-abunimah-and-morrisons/#comment-852</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Sutcliffe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 22:40:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qunfuz.com/?p=516#comment-852</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[While BDS can be effective it can also create great damage. If it is used surgically it can be useful but it also requires a mass support that is not yet ready in the United States and much of Europe. Is it possible to clearly discern a piece of fruit grown by a Palestinian versus one grown by an Israeli settler?

Economic and institutional growth within Palestine is a major aim for Salam Fayyad who I personally have a lot of respect for. While he has no real political legitimacy or resistance background he is the one Palestinian that has Israel really worried. His plan for a de facto state in two years is reachable and supported in Europe and the United States. While it certainly is not a perfect plan its beats Hamas throwing stones at tanks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While BDS can be effective it can also create great damage. If it is used surgically it can be useful but it also requires a mass support that is not yet ready in the United States and much of Europe. Is it possible to clearly discern a piece of fruit grown by a Palestinian versus one grown by an Israeli settler?</p>
<p>Economic and institutional growth within Palestine is a major aim for Salam Fayyad who I personally have a lot of respect for. While he has no real political legitimacy or resistance background he is the one Palestinian that has Israel really worried. His plan for a de facto state in two years is reachable and supported in Europe and the United States. While it certainly is not a perfect plan its beats Hamas throwing stones at tanks.</p>
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